Rod Morgenstein & Mike Portnoy: Clash Of The Prog-Rock Titans... Well, Sort Of

With so many similarities in musical influences and background, it’s no coincidence that Rod Morgenstein and Mike Portnoy have become recognized as two of the most inspiring and influential drummers on the progressive-rock scene today.

Morgenstein, the seasoned veteran, began his illustrious career at the University of Miami in Florida. After meeting up with fellow students Steve Morse and Andy West there, they formed the groundbreaking fusion band The Dixie Dregs. Rod has since gone on to perform in such groups as The Steve Morse Band, the Rudess Morgenstein Project, the much-maligned Winger, Jazz Is Dead, and most recently Platypus.

Portnoy attended Berklee College of Music in Boston, where he began his musical relationship with guitarist John Petrucci and bassist John Myung. Eventually the three went on to form the powerful progressive metal band Dream Theater.

Both Morgenstein and Portnoy have become well known for their adventurous and aggressive style of double bass drumming and odd-meter playing. But it’s their passion for playing and their sheer love of music that has driven them to rise to the top of their craft.

Earlier this year, when a reformed Dixie Dregs toured with Dream Theater, Mike and Rod sat down to discuss drumming and the crazy world of having a career playing this unique style of music.

MD: Rod, did your experience in Winger dilute your fusion chops?

Rod: The Winger experience opened my eyes to a lot of things. When I moved to New York, I was a snobbish fusion drummer, and I thought I was happening. But the rock players were sending me a message that, “Hey man, you just don’t get it.” I thought, What do you mean I don’t get it? What’s there to get? They said, “That’s just it, your attitude is that this stuff is so stupid, and that it’s beneath you to play it convincingly, regardless of the technique involved.”

You have to feel that music in your heart and really want to be doing it in your head. In the fusion world, when things weren’t happening musically, my solution was to always make my part busier to mask the problem. When you’re playing simple music with simple grooves, there’s nothing there to mask the problem with. So every single note that you play better be spot-on and in the correct part of the pocket.

My experience in Winger has stayed with me. Now I play The Dregs, Jazz Is Dead, and Platypus music with more of a centering on the backbeat. I’m not always just concerned with playing busy. I’m trying to make the music feel good.

MD: While we’re on the subject of simplifying your playing and feeling the emotion of a simple groove, Mike, is that the same type of attitude that you had going into the Transatlantic sessions [Portnoy’s recent side project]?

Mike: That was totally it for me. It was an opportunity to play in the styles of my favorite bands, like The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Procul Harum, and even some of the newer bands like Radiohead. Those bands all have song-oriented drummers, and although I do get to do a lot of that with Dream Theater, a big part of Dream Theater’s appeal and expectations from the fans is for me to go over the top. That’s great, and I love doing that. But with Transatlantic it was an opportunity for me to really tap into The Beatles influence.

I’m a big fan of Spock’s Beard and Marillion, which is how the project sparked. [Transatlantic features members of those bands.] It was the opportunity to create an environment for myself where I could tap into the Ringo vibe.

MD: Do you guys check each other out when the other guy is playing on stage, and have you learned anything from watching each other?

Mike: Absolutely. I watch Rod almost every night. I did teach Rod one thing on this tour, though – probably the most valuable lesson that a drummer can give to another drummer – and that is to tuck in your shoelaces before you start playing!

Rod: I was playing one night on this tour and my shoelace went over my bass drum pedal. I was struggling throughout an entire song to get out of it. It’s the first time that’s ever happened to me.

Mike: The first thing I do when I put my shoes on is tuck in the laces. It’s a very important thing that drummers don’t pay attention to! But that’s about as far as my abilities go in terms of my teaching Rod anything.

I’ve been listening to Rod play since I was a kid. I was a Dregs fan growing up. Rod’s double bass playing has been a huge influence. A few of my favorite progressive drummers from back then were Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, and Alan White. But not many of them were playing a lot of double bass patterns like Rod was. I also learned a lot about filling in the holes from listening to Rod. And he adds so much flavor and emotion with his fills and cymbal work.

Rod: I’m learning a lot from Mike about precision playing. Dream Theater does a lot of unison style playing between the four players. I take a particular interest in watching Mike’s choice of surfaces that he uses to double the parts. What’s great is that it’s not always on a drum or a tom-tom. He’s got so many different sounds on his kit to choose from.

Mike’s got these interesting “signature” drum parts that you associate him with. When you hear them, you know it’s Mike. I think the greatest thing that a drummer can acquire is to be recognized by a particular sound or style that is all his or her own.

MD: It’s interesting that you’re both schooled musicians. You both went to serious music schools.

Mike: I went to Berklee for a year between ‘85 and ‘86. That’s where I met John Myung and John Petrucci and we formed the band. After a year of studying and writing music together at Berklee we decided to leave the school and pursue the band full-time.

Rod: I went to the University of Miami, and oddly enough, now I teach part-time at Berklee. Right out of college The Dregs got a record deal and went on for seven or eight years. When we broke up, Steve Morse asked me to play with him. Three months into Rush’s Power Windows tour, which we were opening, Steve said that Kansas was re-forming and he was going to join the band. That’s when it hit me in the face: What am I gonna do for the rest of my life?

It was at that point that I thought, what else can I do as a musician to make a living? I knew I wanted to get into another band, but what could I do in the meantime? So I became a columnist for various magazines and started writing drum books with audio tapes. I also did a drum video. By that time Winger had come along, and I was back in a band again. Then, about three years ago, keyboardist Jordan Rudess and I played at Berklee and I was approached by the chairman of the percussion department to teach. I love teaching, partly because it’s not the only thing I do. That’s why I love touring now, because I don’t do that all the time either. There’s a burnout factor in everything you do, and as long as you can have enough different things going on, things will always be interesting and you’ll feel like you’re continually progressing.

MD: Mike, how much of what you learned at Berklee applies to what you do now?

Mike: In terms of drumming, I would have to say not much. Most of my drumming skills came from being self-taught and listening to other drummers on records. I spent almost no time at all focusing on the drums at Berklee. The only drumming I was doing then was playing with Myung and Petrucci every night, writing music. During the day, my concentration was spent learning the things that would help me become more well-rounded as a writer and musician, like theory, harmony, arranging, ear training, and sight singing. Those were the classes that really interested me. I had two years of theory and harmony going into Berklee, and those were the areas that I wanted to focus on.

Rod: The thing that says a lot about the music schools to me is that The Dregs came out of the University of Miami and Dream Theater came out of Berklee. I’m constantly asked by other musicians about how you make connections in the business. I tell them that the best way to find the musicians that you want to work with is to find an environment where you can meet great players. There’s a great music program at Miami, and you can hear and meet great players and teachers there.

Once you’re in a situation like that, you’ll gravitate towards the people that have the same musical tastes as you. I would never have met Steve Morse, T Lavitz, Andy West, or Alan Sloan had I not decided to go to that school. I don’t know if I’d still be a musician had I not gone there. So, the first big thing that happened in my career was a direct result of going to music school. I’m not saying that in order to be a good musician you have to go to school. I’m saying that had I not gone to school, I wouldn’t have met the players and gone on to start my career.

Mike: Rod’s situation is identical to mine. People ask me What the best thing I got out of Berklee was, and I tell them it was meeting John Myung and John Petrucci. Had I not gone there, my life would be totally different on a musical and personal level. I always think about what my life might have been like had I not gone there and met the guys and followed that path. It’s funny, but at a place like Berklee you can actually learn almost as much from the students as you can from the teachers because the environment is as inspiring as the classes.

Rod: I can remember that ten minutes into the theory classes, most drummers were in the back of the room asleep. Most drummers are very uninformed in every area outside of playing a beat, and that’s disheartening. If you go to a music school and really apply yourself, you’ll be so fascinated at how amazing music really is when you can finally see that it’s not just a bunch of notes thrown up in the air and that it’s all very logical.

Mike: You’re only going to get out of it what you put into it. That was part of the reason that we left after a year. We chose to go to Berklee because we were hungry for information. Once we met each other, we felt a real chemistry between us in terms of writing and performing music. Then we were faced with a big decision. We found that you can’t put a hundred percent into your school work and a hundred percent into the band and expect to succeed at both. We were forced to follow one path or the other.

I taught myself how to read music. I would buy songbooks with Rush and Yes music and listen to the records and read the notation along with the music. Those books never had drum notation, so I would try and follow the guitar part or the keyboard part and count out the odd time signatures. I learned how to group 16th notes in 5/4 and things like that.

MD: So at this point in your careers, what do you feel are your biggest weaknesses as players and musicians?

Mike: Mine would be the lack of diversity in what I do. Ironically, Dream Theater’s music is probably the most diverse music in rock ‘n’ roll, but I still feel slightly limited just because I’m stuck in the progressive, heavy technical rock genre. When I do things in the drum community like festivals and clinics and I hang out with guys like Dennis Chambers and Steve Smith, I feel that they are very well-rounded and I’m just the progressive heavy metal rock guy. I would love to be able to do, some of the things that Chambers, Weckl, or Colaiuta do. I think that I’ve created a niche in what I do, but there is definitely a whole other world out there that I haven’t tapped into in terms of drumming.

MD: I’ve heard you say that you don’t practice much. So how are you going to do this?

Mike: That’s a big problem because I’m at a point in my life where I don’t think I could give the time and dedication that it would require to be able to do that. I know that Neil Peart went off for years and studied with Freddie Gruber or something like that. But I just don’t have that dedication, focus, and, most importantly, time. I have a wife and two kids, and they are such an important part of my life. I don’t want to say this to discourage younger drummers, but given the choice of spending six hours rehearsing or six hours with my family, at this point in my life, at age thirty-three, I would rather spend those six hours with my family. So I guess I’ll never be a jazz drummer and I’ll just have to accept that. [Mike mock-painfully sobs.]

Rod: There are two things I have to work on. One is the technique of playing drums. I’ve developed some bad habits over the years. I know that I play with tension and stress and that the way you develop optimum technique is if the sticks are doing all the work and your hands and arms are just directing them.

My dear friend Danny Gottlieb asked me to play a single stroke for him, and that’s when I discovered I needed help. He said I needed to throw the stick down and let it come back up by itself. Then you’re ready to repeat the same motion. Start at the point of attack, drop the stick, and let it bounce back instead of rearing the stick back from the point of attack. That’s the whole philosophy of Joe Morello’s amazing technique, which he got from George Lawrence Stone.

Danny can sit for an hour and do single strokes faster than Buddy Rich with no tension, at a whisper or at triple forte. It’s a mental thing, as well as physically training the muscles in the hands to let the sticks do all the work.

The other thing I want to work on is further developing the songwriting aspect of being a musician. I’d like to be able to write a beautiful pop ballad, because I know that I have it in me. I’m also not a tech head, and that’s something I need to address. When I’m home, I look at this beautiful Macintosh computer that I can barely turn on to get email, let alone learn all of the Performer software that’s in it.

MD: Do you feel that being labeled as a “prog” or “fusion” drummer has had a positive or negative effect on your career?

Rod: Being labeled can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. It can be a blessing, because we’re in a musicians’ genre, so you get a lot of fans and a lot of respect from musicians. But in terms of the bigger picture, you have the rest of the pop and rock world looking at you with a cautious eye. They think you’ll get bored with the gig and that you really don’t understand the importance of grooving and playing for the song.

That was a big struggle for me during that period of my career before I met the Winger guys. But it was through that struggle that I learned that you have to keep an open mind and respect all kinds of music, and that there is good and crap in every kind of music. Just because a drum part is simple doesn’t mean it sucks. [Rod starts singing melody and air drumming to “Back In Black” from AC/DC.] AC/DC is the perfect example of how effective simplicity in drumming can be. They are the ultimate “groove” hard rock band.

MD: What advice do you have for drummers who want to make drumming a career, and what are the biggest obstacles most drummers will face in doing so?

Mike: One of the biggest misconceptions is that the almighty “record deal” is the gold at the end of the rainbow. Actually, that’s really when all the trouble begins. Everything that happens to get you there seems like smooth sailing. Nothing in this industry is a given and nothing is going to come to you. It takes a lot of perseverance and dedication to get through it all. It’s a lot of work.

Rod: The bottom line is do it because you love it. Play music for no other reason than the fact that you love waking up and sitting down at your drums and playing your heart out. That’s got to be the first and foremost reason you do it.

If you choose this type of “niche” music, just recognize the fact that your audience is more finite than if you’re with Britney Spears. I think Dream Theater is doing a great job in really capturing a lot of the musicians who love the challenge of playing the wildest music imaginable.

You can make a nice living at it if you persist. In music, success is hit or miss and it’s not always about who’s got the most talent. A lot of it is the package of your band.

Mike: A lot of it is also being in the right place at the right time. When Dream Theater broke through in ‘92 and Winger broke through in ‘89, the industry was much different from today. Every five years or so, the industry changes. Back then there were more avenues for bands like ours. The hardest thing about this business is surviving through all the changes in trends. Santana is the perfect example of perseverance. If you stay true to what you believe in, things will eventually come back around.

MD: Who are your favorite drummers and why?

Rod: I’ve come to a point in my career that when I listen to music, I don’t really listen to the drummer like I used to. I just want to hear a good song. That’s what’s important to me now.

Mike: I agree. My first big influence in music was The Beatles, and it wasn’t just because of Ringo’s drumming. It was because I loved their music. I loved the songs. For some reason Ringo stuck out above the rest and I ended up on the drums.

I get a lot of recognition as a drummer, but it’s the other things that I contribute to the band that are also very important to me. It’s the lyrics, the melodies, the way the band is presented, the set lists, the video, the arrangements, and so on.

Rod: It’s interesting that we both point to Ringo as our original influence, because Mike and I come from different generations. As I got older I became a Hendrix fanatic, and Mitch Mitchell to me was the first real fusion drummer. He obviously had a jazz background, but he was playing with a serious rock attitude. Clive Bunker with Jethro Tull was the first drummer I ever saw who did a fifteen-minute drum solo, and he blew me away.

When Billy Cobham came out with The Mahavishnu Orchestra, that turned my world upside down and led me into the fusion scene. Tony Williams also opened my eyes to fusion, but he was coming from a more jazz-oriented approach. Tony taught me that it was okay to take chances on records, and even if you fall on your face it’s alright, as long as you’re trying to create and re-create yourself with passion.

Danny Gottlieb is the most recent guy who is inspiring me. He’s a consummate musician who has a wonderful approach with his technique, and he does things with cymbals that I’ve never heard anyone do.

There are so many great drummers and so much has changed in drumming in the last ten years. Guys like Virgil Donati are doing things with double bass that no one has ever done before, and Terry Bozzio is making the drums a solo instrument.

Mike: And Mike Mangini blows me away! When you love drumming as much as we do you’re influenced by all the great drummers.

Rod: I also want to mention Jeff Sipe from Atlanta, who I had the pleasure of touring with last summer with Jazz Is Dead. I had never played with another drummer, and working with Jeff opened up a whole new world for me in terms of using my ears to lock in. And I’ve never heard anyone make so much music from such a small drumkit.

MD: How has choosing drumming as a career affected your personal lives as far as finding a balance between family and career?

Mike: For me it’s a great struggle. As I mentioned earlier, in order to succeed you have to put a hundred percent into it. I’m now faced with that same dilemma between my band and my marriage, because a marriage and family is also something that requires one-hundred percent. Unfortunately, I can’t walk away from either, so I have to do my best to make them coexist, but there’s no easy answer.

I have a wife and two children, and whenever possible, I bring them on the road with me. But even that’s not a simple solution because there are other bandmembers on the tour bus who may not be able to bring their families, and some don’t have families and would like their privacy. So there’s no easy answer. It takes a lot of understanding from both sides.

Rod: I married my childhood sweetheart, so she’s been with me every step of the journey. She’s every bit as much a part of my career as I am, and she’s very close to everyone in all the bands that I’ve been in and totally understanding of the lifestyle.

We know as many musicians who are divorced as are married, because being a musician does put great stress on a relationship. You find that you’re the one that’s up on stage having a great time playing and everyone is clamoring for you, while your spouse is home working nine to five, or raising children, or both. So it’s understandable that there can be all kinds of conflicts arising that they don’t teach you about in music school. They should teach a reality class on how to deal with these types of issues.

This lifestyle appears to be all glamour, but it’s really a fulltime job. People who are in bands are just like everyone else. Sometimes you get up on the wrong side of the bed. Sometimes you really don’t want to shake a hand or talk to anybody. But you have to remind yourself that everyone you’re meeting is going out of their way to meet you and it’s not fair to not give a hundred percent to each and every one of them.

There’s a lot to deal with all the time, but you have to keep reminding yourself that you’re living a dream that not everyone is going to get. We’re blessed to have this opportunity.